Uwern Jong has trekked around the world and found himself learning and leading in what's next for discerning travelers. Hear his stories from Angkor Wat to the Solomon Islands and his thoughts on diversity in travel and representing the LGBTQ community. What inspired him to leave his marketing career and become a journalist and editor of a top luxury magazine? Listen in to find out and ponder what travel will look like around the world.
Find more at OutThere.com Luxury Magazine, Uwern Jong Editor
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Hey adventures. Welcome to the no ordinary adventurer podcast, a place we call home for adventure and the conversations you want to have. We bring you inspiration stories from the field and talk with adventure travelers and industry experts from around the world. This is a place to fill your heart and head with travel knowledge. Now, your host Dan Blanchard, a lifelong Mariner traveler and CEO of UnCruise Adventures, a small boat adventure company defining the UN in UnCruise. Let's get started I'd like to welcome you into the no ordinary adventure podcast with me Captain Dan Landry. You so I'm coming at you right now just so you know from Seattle. I normally live in Juneau, Alaska. But our ever since COVID. I rented out my place in Juneau and I've been down here limit on my sailboats. Yeah. What time is it at home right now for you? It's 5pm But we're good. Okay, and I'll go away when I'm away from gin o'clock. So you're okay. Oh, I already like you. Cut into my gin o'clock and then we won't get on so well. We call ours Gen 30. You can tell me how I pronounce your name just to make sure. It's not the old one. It's you and my folks will Malaysian so they put it into Malaysian phonetic. As a result, nobody can say it. But you're not you never forget me. I tell you not much. How's life? How are you faring? Well, you know, I think we're all in the same boat. In my case, for sure it's a boat, or marching ahead and looking forward to hopefully some time and things changing this spring, maybe we here we are. We reopened many places and they were all closed again. So destinations wise until until we have this vaccine or we've got this beat it's really hard to it's really hard to do that. So a lot of people managed to get away but we're slowly closing borders. One by one every day is a new boarder closing so well, you know, one of the joys I think about being in the travel community is there's such a huge, wonderful bond. And I can't help believe that all this COVID stuff is actually bringing us all to gather better, stronger than we've ever been before. So I totally believe that I think in a reset as well. You know, in good time. We were just so far I took it I'm going to talk about this later. But you know, we fight we fight a fight a lot. We're constantly firefighting. And actually this time has got us to think about how we can do things differently. Which is, I think, really encouraging. Yeah, I agree. And I am really excited not only to have your great accent onboard today, but but to hear your story. And you know, maybe perhaps one way to start out is I think you know, you and I, from what I've read about you have unique travel stories, how we got into this business, but I would love it if you could maybe kind of share with me what what brought the entrepreneur out in you to start your own business to be the editor of a fantastic magazine that is flourishing in this time of COVID. Well, thank you firstly, thank you, Dan, for having me. I know the C's keep us apart at this moment in time. But I live in hope that one day we'll get to meet face to face and actually do this face to face over some gin I hear. So let me tell you my story. So well. Firstly, I'm you and John, I'm proud to be as what we call experiential lists in chief was just a fancy way of saying editor in chief of what is the world's leading luxury and experiential travel magazine for LGBT people out there. And I started with my business partner some 10 years ago, and how did I get started into it well travelled and I go way back to when I was a kid that and many, many, many, many, many, many moons ago. But until I decided, but until I've decided on a handsome Asian leading man to play me in my biopic, I'll spare you the gory details and jump straight into how I got into travel publishing. So just before I started out there, I was a travel and lifestyle marketer that switch side to be a journalist after 10 years of working in and eventually at the helm of a number of communications agencies here in London. The last two which I was lucky enough to sell I crossed over into the dark side, or what they say the good side dependent on which side you're on out there. You know, as someone who loves to travel, I realized back in 2010, that there wasn't really media for people like me, members of my LGBT community that also loved luxury, experiential and adventure travel. It was a different time to you know, when we started out there 10 years ago, there was no equal gay marriage here in the UK, US and in many parts of the world or legal protections for that matter. So we were seriously on the backfoot as a community But that has changed leaps and bounds. And with that much, much wider acceptance of the LGBT community and difference on the whole, for that matter, be a gender race, and increasingly so intersectionality, particularly in the travel industry, today's travel brands, including you wonderful folks, and crews are keen to win over the hearts and minds of what we call a super diverse cross section of travelers and be part of the solution to greater inclusion and equality in the world. So, out there 21st century luxury travel journal rooted in what we call our three Ds, which are brand pillars of diversity, discovery and discernment. And 10 Roller Coaster years later, I'm thrilled that we're not just the magazine for LGBT people anymore. But one of the nation's which in the UK is foremost, multi award winning travel magazines, a quarterly coffee table book and a brand beyond print that I'm proud to say boasts a huge following of allies, particularly those still looking for inclusivity in travel be that people of color solo female travelers, modern families who enjoy seeing the world through our lens, one that safe considered steeped in personal stories, and more of utterly fabulous. And that's how we got into it just essentially. Well, you know, and I, you know, I just can't help but just smile if you're sharing your story, because, you know, it was a different world not too long ago. And and this will sound weird, but in a way, it has become so much more normal, healthy in the eyes of the world, and acceptance of gay and lesbian travel. I mean, for us, when I was very early in the business, it wasn't that common. And you know, today it's a different world. And I one word you said there really intrigued me discern, tell me, because, okay, I come from a religious background as a kid, right? And certainly was part of my upbringing. And I hold a lot of value in what that word means. So I'm curious what it means to you. Well, I mean different things to different people, you know, I'm a marketer. So I use the word discernment very vaguely, so people can take whatever they want from it. But discernment to me means you know, that the luxury is linked to discernment. And discernment to me, means choice choice is really important in that part of it. But also, to be able to look at the world in a particular way to decide what it is we want from that world. And to be able to go out and have that choice and to be able to go and get it. And that's what the sermon means to me. And it doesn't matter what level of luxury it is, it can be, you know, from the lowest, most simple adventure travel level to the highest, you know, suite on your cruise. Discernment can mean many things, but it means doing things that you want to do that is, you know, different from your everyday life, perhaps as well. Yeah. Isn't that the truth, I mean, luxury, it can be luxury of experience, it can be luxury of setting, it can be luxury of acceptance. I mean, that discernment that you talk about when you talk about the luxury travel market is real. And it is cater to everybody. We, early on, we were very much a luxury brand with all our votes. And, and but as time went on, we found that that was important, but the luxury of real, authentic experience, I think, is what you're talking about to. Absolutely. And everyone you know, everyone finds finds a different definition of it. And that's what I love about the word luxury and discernment. Because there's a different definition, you know, luxury, and, you know, on paper is all about affluence. And I don't think that's true at all. You know, luxury is to be able to go out and do something that really transforms your life that really makes you you know, that's different from your everyday life. It could be eating your mom's food, you know, my mom lives in Malaysia now. And I don't get to see her that often. But real luxury to me, to me is getting out there and being in her kitchen while she cooks. And that may not be you know, the textbook definition of luxury, but it's luxury to me. Yeah, I hear you. Well, when we're speaking about travel now, this is your you mentioned earlier, you wouldn't go into the gory details how you got but let's talk about you and I have traveled a lot and I have to say you have traveled for what I've read around the world more than just about anybody I know I think but what give me your hairiest travel story and and let's let's pull the covers off here a little bit. Open and talk about your most crazy ass travel story that that you tell your friends, not just dad on a podcast. Now listen, I have so many of those. I think between you know, I think we share the Spirit then between the spirit of adventure, general inquisitiveness and lost the storytelling identify myself In funny and exciting situations when I travel, I could tell you about the time in Argentina where I was given the keys to the city of Mendoza, because people have mistaken me for sign. You know, the Korean pop artists who did Gangnam Style, or when I got locked in by a forest ranger in a pen, with a family orangutangs in Borneo, but I'll leave those for my biopic. So I'm actually going to tell you a travel story that led to me creating this magazine, because I think it's another podcast, we are going to have all those stories, but go ahead. So when I left the world of marketing and toyed with the idea of setting up this magazine, I took myself off traveling to Southeast Asia. I was actually in Cambodia, when it come to Jesus moment happened, well actually was a come to Buddha moment because it was in Cambodia. So I was clambering up the infamous Angkor Wat at dawn, in the days when you still could you can't anymore, unfortunately, and you know, but also fortunately for the protection of protection of the UNESCO site. But when, in those days, many moons ago, you still could so I was keen to get up there I went up that Dawn and pitch black to be one of the first people to get to the top to say a sacred morning prayer. But when I got up there, I found that had been beaten up there by a rather elderly Canadian lady from Vancouver. So she climbed up these super steep steps in crutches in the pitch black to do exactly the same. And she'd beat me up there. But I'm a firm believer in things happening for a reason I wasn't too disappointed for too long. So together, we watched the sunrise over Siem Reap, as a monk in a saffron yellow robe less disenchanted with the most feared real spiritual moment in my life. And there was a poignant moment midway actually, when She leant over, and confided in me that she had a terminal illness and was dying. And Cambodia was to be her last and final trip before passing. So, you know, it was very emotional, we both cried a little on top of the world, essentially, and spend some time together. And as we said, Goodbye, she decided to tell me as her parting words rather than randomly, that if I had something in my head, and I wanted to do something, or there was some way I want to go to seize the moment, and just to do it, because life is short. And as soon as I return for Cambodia, we started the magazine. So that's actually, you know, my travel stories, because it led me into the world that I am in today. And it's true life is short. And we have to seize the moment and seize the day and get out there and do what we want, if we can. Well, and you know what, what strikes me about that story is just the the heavy, heavy communication of to human souls. I mean, to be on top there and to hear her story and, and go through that, I mean, that I can see why that would be the story that would stick. Absolutely. And, you know, it led me into to where we are today. And I think that's why travel is so amazing in that way. Because it can bring people from totally different backgrounds and totally different parts of the world together to experience something magical and take away what they want from it to discern. True and and and moving from there into today. You know, we're obviously in this world pandemic, your businesses affected just like mine, but in different ways. I mean, tell me, you know, how you're taking your brand and adjusting to this period what you had to change in your Outlook since COVID. And, and maybe how that folds into the future. Wow. Listen, listen, Dan on the eternal optimist, you can't get a you can't keep a good dog down. And they say I'm the eternal optimist here. So I think there's a silver lining to everything. It's been, as you say, a terrible year for business and for the travel industry. But actually for us, I've seen it as a been a really good year for brand and innovation. You know, in good times, I think we're constantly firefighting. And as a small and growing business, when everything is moving so fast in a travel industry, sometimes it's so hard to keep up. And you just you know, focused on essentially doing business rather than stepping back and thinking about the magic of travel. But as we've had some time to think, and we've thankfully managed to keep our entire team on board which which I love because, you know their family to me essentially, we have the opportunity to come up with some amazing and innovative things that are set us on course for what I think will be an exciting recovery. We launched an awards program, crazy to launch a new product at this time. What we did, and I know you guys have entered so thank you for your support. But the you know the thinking behind the award was to reward innovation resilient stewards. chipping creativity in the travel industry. And we've now I'm excited to say fundraise close to $10,000 from entry donations that we're going to give to the winner of the most out there initiative and community sustainability and conservation category. They've been so many fabulous tourism projects that give back at this time, and I just want to do the same. You know, other than that, we've been working on our website to increase engagement, traffic's through the roof, that people want to feed their wanderlust. So we've launched what we're calling a feel good newspaper, online called the experiential list that continues to print the blind inspiration to our readers. And more importantly, and this is super important to eight positive mental health. Lockdown does funny things to people, let alone the uncertainty. So we're using travel as a force for good to help people keep their minds traveling, which by the way, is our hashtag at this time, hashtag, keep your mind traveling. And we've been working hard still, you know, working harder than ever, in fact, and we're back in print this winter. I'm so excited to say that we're back in print this winter, we had to take a little hiatus. But we're literally as we speak, just closing our latest issue, which we're calling the next chapter, which is all about what 2021 holds all of us. And it's filled with divine inspiration, coming out of some of the insights, my research at this time and tapping into the needs and wants of our traveler. So we've been busy. I first of all, I applaud you. I'm excited to hear about all the activity you are having. And going back to print Oh my gosh. And so it can you give us any leading secrets that are going to come out this first issue any any insights that you're seeing here that you can share before the press? lets loose? Haha, I actually have a ton of insight so I was prepared for this job. And you're going to ask that question. Let me tell you some of our insights, because we've been quite diligent and pulling our readers over this time, I've always, I think being a marketer coming from a marketing background. I'm always so keen to know what our readers are interested in. So we've got some quite some detailed insight into what out there travelers are looking for going forwards. So let me get the basics over with quick. You know, we all know this health and safety, flexibility, trust, that's super important for all travelers and out there travelers to I think you're you know, you're seeing that you're definitely seeing that within your businesses. But more specifically for our readers that comes a heightened sense of safety when it comes to travel, not just from the virus, but also from other factors. The nervousness, I think that COVID is created means that out there travelers are defaulting. And I say this for the first time in a long time that we've seen at the magazine two destinations and travel brands that show them more actively involved in caretaking for the world. Whether that's environmental sustainability, or social sustainability transformative travel is is by far the buzzword, it was already a buzzword transformative travel before we went into this, and now transformative travel is going to be is going to be huge. And more specifically for our LGBT readers. Our survey shows a marked increase of people choosing a destination or brand known for its welcoming stance, as compared to the same survey that say we did in late 2019. I would also say that there's increased concern around politics leaning to the right, you being American, you know what I'm talking about, of course, but all that is happening in many places around the world. So there's this increased need for safety, and inclusivity is compounded even more so out there travelers I'm feeling and I'm getting this I'm more woke to coined the word. You know, I think I'm too old to use the word work now, but the more work than ever, and they want to work with travel providers that can show that commitment to diversity, particularly in the aftermath of COVID Black Lives Matter and all the geopolitical challenges that 2020 Of course, coughed up. But you know what? encouragingly many travelers are ready to go now. I think you can't keep people who love travel at home for too long, you know that they're dying to get out there. And we've been tracking the behavior of a heart sample of our readers for a little while. And I can tell you some 70% of our British sample at least I know, because we've been able to get out there has already taken short haul international leisure travel since the border started opening again in June which is staggering. But the more important part is that we've now pulled that 92% of these people will not be concerned with traveling along the hall and that destination over six hours so you know we're ready to go we're wanting to get out there and people are looking to book into Christmas and you know, in spring 2021 And we've seen also a rapidly growing trend and nomadic travel. longest days slower travel from out there travelers, many of which Many people realize they think that over the past month that they can successfully work remotely. I think we've all we've all found that it's possible to do. And with many trap many businesses here in the UK, not expecting their workforce to return to the office until 2021. The opportunity is there to get out into the world quarantine for the two weeks requirement and actually enjoy their time somewhere else, you know, and with, I think it's particularly sort of characteristic of our reader, because they've got less physical ties, LGBT people are more and more likely to own the homes out right, run their own businesses don't have kids, you know, so the idea of quarantining somewhere fabulous and spending some proper time there is very attractive, especially as winter hits, you know, but this is the best news of all, especially for those selling travel. And I'm sure you're welcome this news that that travel will be a spending priority for the year ahead, where beforehand, we had some competition and luxury fashion cars, art, you know, the clear winner for 2021 is travel which 68% of people saying that their travel budget will remain completely unaffected, or actually will increase in the new year. And I think here's the big one for you. I mean, we talked about transformative travel 78% Want to are looking for experiences that are life changing. So people are, you know, taking more consideration, and to the type of holiday they book. And this is I think there's two little little snippets of information is a you know, you're welcome. The desire for outdoor space and nature based experiences is through the roof, like 77% of our readers have opted for holiday that gives access to nature and opens basis for when they can return again, and the desire for group experiences. Small group experiences particularly remain small, which actually shocked me a little bit, but I think people are craving human company now, you know, after so long been locked down. And so long as it's done in a safe and considered way. And for you at UnCruise. I've got some great news. The interest in small ship expedition cruising holds firm, I was expecting that given the negative press that the cruise industry has received over the last few months that that will be a fallen interest. But actually, interest in small ship cruising has increased by a couple of percent. So it's less clear, is rose tinted glasses. I think this is all good news to me. And of course we've been, you know, I? Well, first of all 92%. And then 78% in those two different categories is amazing to me. Also, so it doesn't surprise me. Because I'm we're feeling the same thing. You know, a lot of our guests were, you know, initially anxious and fearful. And it has turned around to you know, listen, I only live so many years on this planet, I need to get out. And I'm going to travel. And I think you're right, in the sense that people are picking destinations, small group bubbles, we're finding as a big thing, whether they be family bubbles, or friend bubbles, you know, even traveling when COVID around, of course, you know, for us here in the United States, a big thing is going to be rapid, regular, and reliable testing very soon, I hope. And I hope it goes nationalized. Otherwise, we're going to be in trouble. But, you know, the, the opportunities are truly out there. Ken reminds me a little bit. I've been in the business like yourself for a long time. And I remember after 911, there was this pause of travel, and it really took till March to peak for people to really start booking again. But they came back for the same reason they're going in my life, I have to live, I have to have experiences, I need to be on the on top of that historic structure sharing the story with a woman who's died like you did. And these are that this is what enriches our life. Right? So I I am encouraged by what you say. And I, I can't wait to read it. Surely I'm truly encouraged. And you know, like I say, I am in the eternal optimist, but I just feel it, I think, you know, we as travel providers, people who work in the travel industry, we're adapt to this, we we've seen, we've seen this stuff before, like you say, you know, we know how to make this safe. So we know how to make the situation safe for people to travel. We're in the business of looking after guests. We're in the business of hospitality. And looking after guests means making sure they're safe. So we're going to do that. We know that and as soon as there's confidence and there seems to be confident for people to get out there traveling again. They'll come back. Absolutely. So with that, come back if you could be in front of every travel provider in the world right now. If you had a word of wisdom about how their brand can improve for you, your clients, for humanity at large, what would be some of those things that you would look at and say, This is what brands can do to really march towards the future? Right. So here's the thing, trust is super important if two key words, trust, now more so than ever, travel partners have to demonstrate that they can deliver the same, if not better experience and more challenging, and more challenging time. And trust is essential to that, you know, and I'm so encouraged that there's so many brands like you guys that have, have built that trust for a very, very long time. And, you know, that trust continues. And I think now we've got to push, we've really got to push that trust, because that's what consumers are looking for. The other thing I would say is personalization, you know, hyper personalization, almost to some degree, I for one, and so dari does want to work with travel partners who truly understand our needs, you know, and have second guessed my requirements and all my needs way ahead of me. And then the out there Well, that's the understanding of inclusivity and valuing diversity, and understanding that no two guests or customers are the same, that brands don't just stop at a quality and they need to, in their Service Delivery exceed expectations based on individual preferences. And I think that's more, you know, that's more important now than ever, you know, the cookie cutter experience has gone out the window. Yes. We need to find ways of delivering memories. That's what travels about, you know, for so long, I think people, particularly in good times, you know, people have been very into selling rooms or having so experiences, you know, that sometimes I think that actually we forget what we're all here to do. We don't sell travel, we sell memories, we sell dreams, and we sell memories, you know, and the functional bits are just purely functional. But what people take home with them are these dreams and memories. And I think every travel provider needs to think about that now that we're no longer selling just rooms and cabins and experiences. We're selling memories. And we have to remember and go back to you know, where we all started when we came into the industry. And before we got bogged down by commerciality and business that, you know, is the experience that really counts. Yeah, that is so true. And I apologize, I was looking, I was taking notes on what you're saying, I was loving those words so much. You know, I when we started out our business, we were originally a company called Americans for cruises. And like I mentioned, it was luxury. But even back in those days, I used to tell my staff, we are not selling a boat, we're not even selling Alaska, which was our original destination, we are selling life experience. And it just happens to be that the tool is about the tools that kayak, whatever. And I just I hearken to the personalization message you just sent about, you know, travel has to be about the human being and their desires. And And certainly, you know, we both experienced a lot of mass market in our lives. And that has a place. But I think for true luxury luxury of experience, perhaps as the way to say it, you have hit on a key core value that I believe is the need for the travel industry going forward. Absolutely. Personalization is key. And in my world, this is you know, that's an added as an added level. You know, personal personalization is magic. If you get it right for an hour for an LGBT traveler or traveler that comes from a different background to the mainstream. I think for me, particularly in this age, and because of the platform I represent, I think brands also need to look at themselves in the mirror more and ask if they're being truly inclusive to this work. I keep using this word for this work 21st century guests. Because this this, this guest actually valued diversity more than ever before. You know, and I think travel, travel providers need to get in there they really need to ask themselves if if diversity and inclusion is really part of their DNA and their operations and the way they communicate with the world and with their people or their staff trained to understand the needs of LGBT travelers or travelers of colors or modern families. You know, families are no longer mom, dad and two kids you know, families can be single parent families that can be same gender parent families, it's it's it's so important to to understand diversity and to reach these people are represented in marketing and communications and in your workforce and you know, and travelers, I used this word earlier, intersectional travelers are more intersectional than ever, you know, I looked like I do, but I'm proudly British and gay. And I'm of Asian descent, you know, I check off so many diversity strands. And while I'm working to be at the top of my game, I sometimes stopped to take a look around, I still feel rather underrepresented in the industry, and in travel marketing that is predominantly white and heteronormative. And at the board table of the big travel brands, so I think I think it's really important for brands to address the issues of diversity inclusion in their everyday work, because that is what today's customer is looking for. We are more diverse than ever before. And actually the travel industry, it's such a diverse industry and the very nature of travel as worldly read diversity. So surely it makes sense to embrace it, and make it a core value in everything we need to do. And in this age of hyper personalization, as I say, in an industry that is adept to creating memories, this is an area that's still needs more work. But I know we're gonna get there. I'm confident we're going to get there. I agree. You know, I just have to tell you, I feel like I've been in the sanctuary of you're in preach, you can listen to a really good preacher right now. You're in the United States and want to get together you and I will rock it. Okay. Absolutely. All I need is a gospel choir to come in behind me, right? I mean, no religion, this is life. And to me, it's exciting. But I have one kind of odd question, I'm just gonna throw out my research, it kind of peaked a little bit of interest, you started talking about the South Pacific one time, about opportunities that might be coming up. And I took three years off when my children were eight and 10. And we sail the South Pacific on a 40 foot sailboat. So I visit a lot of islands. And I find that it depending on the particular island group, I mean, historically, of gay and lesbian activity, as far as being accepted, is there it has been historically for hundreds 1000s of years. And we were we were so I mean, this was back in the 90s, when it still wasn't really accepted. And travel is its identified group. So we were, you know, very excited, you know, to find this natural path, you might say, in our in our sailing adventures, but when you talk about the Civic, I mean, do you have any thoughts there, I need some insight, because I travel the Pacific and I, you know, you're kind of starting to speak my language. And when you talk about that destination, South Pacific is opened up wider than ever before, you know, now I consider paths, you know, used to think about load the Fijian Islands and the Cook Islands. And, you know, and obviously, you know, Bora Bora and Tahiti, the French, Polynesian islands is hot on what's hot right now. And because it's one of the I understand that it's actually one of the early destinations at this moment in time that's accepting American travelers. That's actually the scourge of my Instagram is entirely of people in the South Pacific right now. But no, you're right, without Pacific is so interesting. It's so rich, and the isolation, I think, you know, if you go into the history of the South Pacific, the many people that escaped, you know, a lot of prosecution a lot of a lot of colonialization, you know, that that's that's the buzzword for now a horrible word, unfortunately. But a lot of people were escaping colonialization, or went out into the islands, and they live their life in this way. That was open, respectful, loving of nature, which is, which is super important. And actually letting everyone be who they are, and actually believing in the spirit of people and the spirit of humanity. to last, you know, and I've experienced that, you know, even sometimes the strangest of places like I was recently in Raja impact in the Indonesian archipelagos. I also went out to the powers of their, which was fantastic. And you know, Indonesia, not a great country, when it comes to LGBT rights or human rights for that matter. But in those places, it's an entirely different story. Yeah, an entirely different story. And listen, I I've come to learn this in my in my travels, that what the regime puts down what government put down is entirely different to what human beings present. Human beings inherently not all human beings, unfortunately, but most human beings. I'll give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Just just want to love their fellow human. Yeah. And regardless of what color they are, where they come from, who they love, what they're able to do or unable to do. It doesn't it doesn't matter which Just all human being. And actually in the South Pacific, that's, you know, that's what actually I would say, besides it being one of the most beautiful places on Earth, and also so rich in its ecosystem, and wildlife and marine life and pretty much untouched. Actually, there is this inherent human spirit of, you know, loving life, being out in the open, enjoying nature, and creating memories and inherent human nature. It is inherent, we were, you know, we're born to love. We are, you know, and people, unfortunately, forget that. And unfortunately, it comes from, you know, the things we're not supposed to ever talk about politics and religion. Unfortunately, it comes, you know, a lot of a lot of the difficulties, difficulties stemmed from that. However, you know, regime beliefs are usually different to what people actually present. You know, and you can go to some what is sometimes what you think the scariest places in the world, as an LGBT person, or a person of color, or someone that might come from a different background to usual, and being, you know, having the best time and meeting of minds and really finding out that people really don't care. They just, they just want you for you. Yeah, you know, isn't just a great place that our world's heading to whether the government's thinks oh, or not, and I, you know, I'm just going to close with First of all, I have so enjoyed this interview. It's, me too. There are times in life when we come across the path of people with big hearts, big souls, open minds, that are just wanting good. And I sense that from you. And I, I've lately been finding old songs as I've been in, you know, our own bubbles, right. And one of them I, I've been singing to my girl lately is, you know, and you know, this song, but we all need it. It's what the world needs now. And it's so Elementary, but it is so right on. And, you know, and I want to thank you for all you're doing for making our life, our world, my life today, a lot more lovely than it was 40 minutes ago. And I hope that you carry this message on and on, and you're encouraging me, I'll put my finger now you're encouraging me to follow a better path. So thank you so much. And thanks for joining this podcast. And I just look forward to the day that that I can meet you in some remote place and be on a hilltop and talk over life. Thank you, Dan. And thank you so much for having me. And actually, you know, I want I'm not done yet. It's Alaska. So yeah, that's where you're that's where you have been. Find you. So when when all when all is better. I will be over to you in Alaska, and I hope I can travel with you and you can show me your world. Alright, sounds good. And you're working just fine. You What's the best way to contact you. You can find us online at www Out There dot travel, or on Instagram at out there mag, I noticed you're pretty heavy Instagrammer I try my best 21st century storytelling, you do the right words anymore. You got to be present in pictures, you got to be able to take pictures, you got to shoot video, you got to be able to do this, you know, the world has changed. And I'm all for it. I'm all for it. Thank you so much from the bottom of my heart. But I hope that when our crap paths do cross that that we can go out and celebrate luxury in the experience of life. And I look forward to the time and I'm also in the future I would love to hear more about you know just just I lately because businesses being reinvented I'm finding myself just been like how are people you know, just the mechanics of business and getting through this period and and expanding into the ever changing marketplace? So maybe we'll maybe that'll be a little maybe we'll have a business talk so today about how the heck are entrepreneurs. Now absolutely am I talk to keep the glass half full? I've been lovely speaking to you. Oh thanks for listening to no ordinary adventure sharing locally harvested stories about adventure. Be sure to subscribe, leave a review tell a friend and help spread the word. We are a community of nature lovers, intrepid travelers and outdoor adventurers mostly from the comfort of a small boat and we want to spread Our love of this fascinating planet that's it for this episode now get inside